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Todd Rose
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:45 am 
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Thanks, Aaron.

Alan, if you're still following this thread, please keep us posted on how that guitar your student is finishing with the U500 is coming along. Thanks!

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LarryH
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:54 am 
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A.Hix wrote:
CharlieT wrote:
Those are looking nice, Aaron. Are you brushing or spraying?

I used to brush all of my finishes, which is what first led me to use the U500 as a guitar finish, as it levels out and brushes on smoother than anything else I had tried. Now, I sometimes spray the U500 and it works very well, too. If you choose to brush the finish, be sure to use a really high quality natural bristle brush. I use a badger bristle brush.
Here is the finish method I use for the U500:
1. If the wood is porous and needs filled, I use mainly zpoxy, but you can use your filler of choice. For zpoxy, I usually apply 2-3 coats and level sand the last coat with 400 grit 3m gold paper.
2. Brush or spray first coat of the U500, making sure it is thin and even. If it is slightly uneven, don't worry, it will level out really well.
3. Allow to cure at least overnight, minimum of 12 hours.
4. If first coat is cured, and has no tacky spots, lightly go over the instrument with 400 grit, not to level sand, just to scuff the surface a bit. It will make a fine white powder when you lightly sand it with 400 grit if properly cured.
5. apply second coat, allow to dry overnight, then apply 3rd coat, let it cure overnight.
6. For 4th coat, lightly scuff the whole surface with 400 grit paper, if there are irregularities in the finish, level them out as best you can without sanding into the previous coats too deeply.
7. Apply coats 5 and 6, letting the finish cure overnight between coats., and 3-4 days after coat 6.
8. By this time, if applied nice and evenly, you should have enough of a surface build to try and level sand.
9. Start with 400 grit and level sand the entire instrument, working up to 800 grit, do not skip any grits between.
If you do not have any sand thru, proceed sanding up to 2000 grit, higher if you like.
10. Let the instrument rest for a day or two, then buff out to a beautiful, rich, glossy sheen! (I use menzerna fine, and very fine compounds)


Aaron,

How do you deal with the vertical surfaces (sides mostly) and potential runs considering the fairly long dry times?

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David LaPlante
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:44 am 
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OK,
I did my first application of Epiphanes varnish yesterday.
I prepped the guitar with my usual LMI micro bead fill followed by final sanding to 220 and then an "egg wash" application over all.
The "egg wash" seals against color bleed between the rosewood and light purfling lines during the application of the shellac seal coats. I applied generous shellac seal coats with a pad and sanded back with 600 to prep the surface for the varnish application.
Mixed the Epiphanes clear varnish/Accelerator/ Epihanes Brush thinner in the 1:1:1 ratio as per Laurent's instructions. It took one false start to get a feel for how much to load in the brush but this stuff is very forgiving and levels (as Laurent has attested to) very well. Dried overnight well enough to handle and seems sandable though I haven't gotten to leveling it yet for the next coat.
I'll do the naptha wipe down after sanding as Laurent suggests (removes any oils which got through the seal coats?) as well as add a touch (10%) of acetone to subsequent coats as per Laurent to aid in the adhesion of successive coats.
More as I proceed but so far I'm feeling better about this......one good thing is that the odor of this stuff is low level and not objectionable and thus no complaints from my wife who is quite sensitive to bad smells wafting up from my basement workshop.
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A.Hix
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:03 pm 
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LarryH wrote:
A.Hix wrote:
CharlieT wrote:
Those are looking nice, Aaron. Are you brushing or spraying?

I used to brush all of my finishes, which is what first led me to use the U500 as a guitar finish, as it levels out and brushes on smoother than anything else I had tried. Now, I sometimes spray the U500 and it works very well, too. If you choose to brush the finish, be sure to use a really high quality natural bristle brush. I use a badger bristle brush.
Here is the finish method I use for the U500:
1. If the wood is porous and needs filled, I use mainly zpoxy, but you can use your filler of choice. For zpoxy, I usually apply 2-3 coats and level sand the last coat with 400 grit 3m gold paper.
2. Brush or spray first coat of the U500, making sure it is thin and even. If it is slightly uneven, don't worry, it will level out really well.
3. Allow to cure at least overnight, minimum of 12 hours.
4. If first coat is cured, and has no tacky spots, lightly go over the instrument with 400 grit, not to level sand, just to scuff the surface a bit. It will make a fine white powder when you lightly sand it with 400 grit if properly cured.
5. apply second coat, allow to dry overnight, then apply 3rd coat, let it cure overnight.
6. For 4th coat, lightly scuff the whole surface with 400 grit paper, if there are irregularities in the finish, level them out as best you can without sanding into the previous coats too deeply.
7. Apply coats 5 and 6, letting the finish cure overnight between coats., and 3-4 days after coat 6.
8. By this time, if applied nice and evenly, you should have enough of a surface build to try and level sand.
9. Start with 400 grit and level sand the entire instrument, working up to 800 grit, do not skip any grits between.
If you do not have any sand thru, proceed sanding up to 2000 grit, higher if you like.
10. Let the instrument rest for a day or two, then buff out to a beautiful, rich, glossy sheen! (I use menzerna fine, and very fine compounds)


Aaron,

How do you deal with the vertical surfaces (sides mostly) and potential runs considering the fairly long dry times?


If you do a nice, thin coat, it will not tend to run. The viscosity of the U500 is a bit thicker than other finishes, and doesn't run if applied thinly and evenly.

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David LaPlante
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:41 pm 
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After sitting for 48 hours (not necessary but I was busy with other things yesterday) the guitar sanded out quite nicely (400 grit 3M Gold) to prep it for coat #2 of the Epiphanes. Sanded out producing a nice dry white powder residue with no gummyness encountered anywhere. Wiped down with napha as per Laurent's rec.
Added 10% acetone (again as per Laurent) to the mix for improved adhesion and used a small brush to first detail the interior of the peghead slots then the regular 2" brush (from Epiphanes) for the major surfaces.
The hardest part I think is coming up with a good pattern for brusing as well as judging how much to load the brush........getting the hang of it....
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ernie
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:12 pm 
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I/m following this varnish schedule as it/s too dicey to spray in my bsmt. Correct me if I/.m wrong , but didn/t laurent mention something abt. adding a small amt of japan drier with the 10% acetone to speed up the drying ?? thanks.
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David LaPlante
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:31 pm 
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He did Ernie but I wanted to proceed (didn't want to hold off till I obtained the dryer) so I'm trying it without.
Seemed to dry fine in a 24 hr period. Was totally sandable at 48 when I got around to it.
It's not necessary for me to push this one timewise and actually I find it risky to push any of these finishes at this point.
I get the impression that Laurent moving through the process more quickly and thus the drier to speed things along.

I'll do a sanding test at 24 hrs to see if it's drying completely in that period.
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ernie
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:02 pm 
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laurent lives on the coast of maine ??. I remember being there one summer, Even though it wasn/t warm abt 75F it felt humid. probably why he adds the j, drier as the humidity can cause problems with the finish. Vy hot here abt 94 but humidity isn/t too high abt 40%.
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Todd Rose
PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:47 am 
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David, I really appreciate you posting your process here.

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MikeyV
PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:55 am 
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I've been using the Ace Interior varnish. I notice that it is soft for a few months, after buffing. It will take the impression of your jeans, or a shirt if you lean on the guitar. Good thing is that they always go completely away (the impressions) after a few hours. I'd like to try some Japan drier next time to see if it reduces some of that. In the long run, it's nothing, but it's a bit annoying.

I might try this Epiphanes, so I appreciate all the discussion about it, and look forward to hearing how your finishes came out.

Mike
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David LaPlante
PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:16 pm 
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So, coat #2 of the Epiphanes dried to a very sandable state in approx. 24 hrs. Again, a nice dry white powder was produced using 3M Gold paper (320 this time to get additional leveling). I did a bit less sanding overall hoping the acetone addition will help with the adhesion as I'm trying to build the thickness. A few tiny runs in the peghead slot area were still soft so I opted to scrape these off and sand/recoat after carefully wiping with Naptha.

Finding the optimal brushing technique and regimen is still the most elusive thing here I think but it helps a lot that this stuff is very forgiving, both in going over it with the brush to fix runs (sooner the better), as well as the ease of level sanding out problem areas after all has dried.
I feel as if I'm at least moving up the learning curve.
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Michael.N.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:23 pm 
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I've tried a number of natural resin oil varnishes but the only 'modern resin' was the old Behlens Rockhard. I think the Behlens was the easiest brushed on finish I've ever applied. It self leveled extremely well and dried fast enough that dust wasn't a big issue. I put it directly onto EI Rosewood and had no issue with it drying and hardening. Pretty tough, hard, durable finish. I only used it once because I couldn't do with the strong chemical odour and the Greenish tinge that it gave to light coloured woods.
You also have to clean your brushes very thoroughly with these types of Varnishes - unless you have them suspended in the solvent. I used a pretty expensive sable/synthetic mix.
I'm tempted to try the Epifanes but thinned down to make it a wipe on finish.
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David LaPlante
PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:44 pm 
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Michael,
My observations thus far being new to this stuff are:
-Nice color, similar to the "light blond" shellac I get from LMI
in that it's an amber color (not yellow or greenish).
-Very mild in the odor department....as I mentioned, no complaints from my wife who picks up on bad smells instantly.
Best
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LarryH
PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 5:10 pm 
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Just picked up a small pint of Epifanes along with their brush on thinner. I'll try it side by side with the U500 which I am very impressed with. I'll brush and wipe the Epifanes to compare.

Been wiping on the U500 with mixed results due to user error and just now gotten a schedule that looks like it will work. Flat, flat, flat is the order of the day (obvious to the more experienced) when wiping on and I'll try the Epifanes under the same conditions and a true brush on, using their thinner for both.

EDIT: Thinner contains and smells like Naptha. That may have been mentioned above.

First impression of the Epifanes. Thick, almost gooey consistency. Feels and acts like thin glue rather than thick varnish - surprising, never seen anything quite like it. I wiped some on some bare hog just to get a feel. Must be thinned for any kind of brushing IMO pretty much like that above recommended recipe. Will know more tomorrow.

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MikeyV
PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:49 pm 
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David,
I get a little "trigger happy" sometimes, and I get runs every now and again. They will harden up if you wait a few days...I don't find adhesion of future coats to suffer by waiting (I've waited over a week), especially if you're scuffing between coats.

One thing I do now, if I see a run forming, I'll put the body or neck holder handle in the bench vise and let the run drip back the other way. That way, they'll still dry in 24-36 hours, with only a little extra leveling in those spots.
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Todd Rose
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:35 pm 
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LarryH wrote:
EDIT: Thinner contains and smells like Naptha. That may have been mentioned above.


Clarification -- are you referring to the Epifanes brushing thinner?

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LarryH
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:08 pm 
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Todd Rose wrote:
LarryH wrote:
EDIT: Thinner contains and smells like Naptha. That may have been mentioned above.


Clarification -- are you referring to the Epifanes brushing thinner?


Yes.

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grumpy
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:43 pm 
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The Epifanes varnishes are "concentrated", so yes, they are thick, and must be thinned quite a bit....
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grumpy
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:29 am 
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Here are a few shots of a mandolin that I did with Epifanes.... Brushed with disposable foam brushes.

Attachment:
epi1.jpg

Attachment:
epi2.jpg

Attachment:
epi3.jpg

Attachment:
epi4.jpg


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George L
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:38 am 
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That's beautiful, Mario.

I'd be interested in learning what advantages brushing might have over wiping, if any. Anyone have thoughts to share on the subject?

Thanks,

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LarryH
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:38 am 
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Beautiful.

Varnish/Thinner? Accelerator? Acetone? Japan Drier?

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LarryH
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:39 am 
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George L wrote:
That's beautiful, Mario.

I'd be interested in learning what advantages brushing might have over wiping, if any. Anyone have thoughts to share on the subject?

Thanks,


Brushing builds way faster than wiping. Wiping goes on perfectly smooth with much less level sanding but many more coats are needed to build.

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Todd Rose
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:43 am 
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Gorgeous, Mario. I'm encouraged that you have, apparently, had very good success using foam brushes. That idea still has a lot of appeal to me. If you have any commentary to add about that method as compared to using a bristle brush (aside from the obvious disposability vs brush cleaning), please share. Thanks -

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Link Van Cleave
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:19 am 
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Todd,
There was an excellent article a few years back in Fine Woodworking mag. on using foam brushes for varnishing. Two points I remember were to use the brush in the same orientation while you brush. That is you only use one side. You mark one side of the wood handle with a marker and always brush with one side of the brush. He also recommended to never wipe the brush on the side of the can to unload it. Said that caused bubbles. I have had good success with foam brushes but not all the foam brushes are created equal. I have noticed a difference in the foam. Try to find that article. I will poke around and see if I have it if you are interested. I would like to read it again.
L.

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ernie
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:37 am 
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Nice flame figure on the maple mario.
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